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Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Now... Behold that which is my favourite language! Good luck.
Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].
Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].
Christian James Meredith I'm guessing it's from the Indo-European family, or possibly anything else.
Christian James Meredith Look at Dayte coming in late and throwing the old order into chaos like a rising star! 
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström "From the Indo-European family or possibly something else" basically sums it up, yeah.
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström During this round, I will use the following system; should I like your comments, it means you have encountered something of value.
Unless the comment is hilarious, of course.
Unless the comment is hilarious, of course.
Christian James Meredith Wild guess time:
mańiiû = something to do with humanity, or a type of human, or anything else somewhat related to Homo sapiens.
-câ = and?
mańiiû = something to do with humanity, or a type of human, or anything else somewhat related to Homo sapiens.
-câ = and?
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström It means that it is half a sentence. I could've given you all of it, but it would've been too difficult.
Marius Vincenzii Dennischter Billy James Brightraven that's what I was thinking...
I forgot the name of the language, that's why I said Zoroastrian related...
coz it wasn't mentioned in Wikipedia as well :S
I forgot the name of the language, that's why I said Zoroastrian related...
coz it wasn't mentioned in Wikipedia as well :S
Billy James Brightraven bah, will haff to get on the computer, silly galaxy doesn't have decent unicode support in the default font.
Billy James Brightraven So according to wiki on Angra mainyu in the gathas/Avesta the polar opposite to Angra mainyu is spenta mainyu - the good/holy spirit. Yay for Alfia ! Know any more Avestan?
Alfia Wallace It's a bunch of instrumental case - ok "Being with Good thoughts, deeds and words is from the Holy Spirit"
Alfia Wallace I'll try going literal - Spenta mainyu is nom pl - Holy spirits. vahishta-ca is a superlative of 'good' with 'and' at the end. manangya instr sg of 'mind'. hacaa is 'from/out of'. šyaoθanā-cā acc pl of 'deed' with 'and (-ca) at end. vacangha -ca - 'and words'. Ok, I'm a crappy translator.. ;_; Last try: The Holy Spirits are the best of mind and deed and words. Unless you go with a more colloquial translations (like "From the Holy Spirit proceeds Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds"), is this not the literal translation?
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström You're doing a good job, but I think you are mixing up the cases and function of the cases, as well as emphasising the holy spirit too much. Do also remember that this is not a full sentence.
Other than that, hadn't you been in this round, I doubt we would've seen the end any time soon! ^^
Other than that, hadn't you been in this round, I doubt we would've seen the end any time soon! ^^
Billy James Brightraven And now, after having sat knee-deep in the pile of knowledge that is "A Primer in Old Avestan" and an "Old Avestan" dictionary.
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
I'm guessing this is Old Avestan and not YAv.
Here's my guess:
The divine inspiration (is) the best mind/thought, out of this deeds and words […]
I'm assuming aṣ̌- is related to a- as a dem. pron. obl. stem and is in the ablative -āt.
Still a few things that don't add up for me… :p but w/e I'll try.
or:
"The best divine inspiration (asti) (is) with the thought, out of this, deeds and out of words […]"
?? assuming comitative use for the instr.
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
I'm guessing this is Old Avestan and not YAv.
Here's my guess:
The divine inspiration (is) the best mind/thought, out of this deeds and words […]
I'm assuming aṣ̌- is related to a- as a dem. pron. obl. stem and is in the ablative -āt.
Still a few things that don't add up for me… :p but w/e I'll try.
or:
"The best divine inspiration (asti) (is) with the thought, out of this, deeds and out of words […]"
?? assuming comitative use for the instr.
Billy James Brightraven Which one of my efforts should be merged into Alfia's? 
"The divine inspiration is with the mind, from this, the best deeds and words"
reordering vahistā to agree with šiiaoθanā in neut. nom.-acc pl.… maybe?
"The divine inspiration is with the mind, from this, the best deeds and words"
reordering vahistā to agree with šiiaoθanā in neut. nom.-acc pl.… maybe?
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Where's the game in that...? A hint though, there is no copula in the original, and thus no need for a copula in the translation. For example.
That looks an awful lot like a full sentence to me...!
That looks an awful lot like a full sentence to me...!
Arief Wibowo I guess humata/hukhta/huwarasta is from the new language, let me check their Old Avestan counterpart
Alfia Wallace If this is from the Gathas, it' even disputable that there's a definitive translation.
Arief Wibowo Meanwhile, let me put my Farvahar picture in front of me to grant me some Spenta Mainyu 
Arief Wibowo A ha, aša means 'truth' and 'right(eousness)', 'order' and 'right working'.
(according to Wikipedia, not the Farvahar)
(according to Wikipedia, not the Farvahar)
Billy James Brightraven "The divine inspiration, with the best mind, out of truth/righteousness, deeds and words […]" then maybe? since -āt is the ablative singular
Arief Wibowo (unrelated to this round) I just discovered that there is "spəṇta-hiiā" in Avestan... I guess it's the same hiia from this round:
http://sprogspelet.arwi.im/history/unabridged/#1653
Got to go now, see you guys in 4 hours!
http://sprogspelet.arwi.im/history/unabridged/#1653
Got to go now, see you guys in 4 hours!
Arief Wibowo Haven't seen Maleen Schlüter in a while, I am sure she would be delighted to join this round 
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Okay, a few points to clarify:
This is not a full sentence, but equivalent to a conjunction of a few prepositional phrases in English.
Avestan is non-configurational, which means it is essential to go case-analysing.
I can now reveal that you have indeed the necessary vocabulary, except that "righteousness" is something of an overkill, and that "holy spirit" is preferable to "divine inspiration".
This is not a full sentence, but equivalent to a conjunction of a few prepositional phrases in English.
Avestan is non-configurational, which means it is essential to go case-analysing.
I can now reveal that you have indeed the necessary vocabulary, except that "righteousness" is something of an overkill, and that "holy spirit" is preferable to "divine inspiration".
Alfia Wallace I'm offline for the rest of the weekend so if someone would please tag me when the correct translation (and grammatical explanation!) are posted, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
Arief Wibowo From Billy James Brightraven's latest guess and Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström said there wasn't any copula:
Holy spirit comes from the best of mind, truth/righteousness, deeds, words [...]
(anyway, grammatical cases aren't my cup
)
Holy spirit comes from the best of mind, truth/righteousness, deeds, words [...]
(anyway, grammatical cases aren't my cup
)Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Yeah, you added "comes" and essentially changed the cases of the surrounding words, sorry!
Maybe I ought to give another clue!
Maybe I ought to give another clue!
Billy James Brightraven From truth, best deeds and words, with the mind the holy spirit
abl. of aṣ̌a
deeds and words (n. pl)
vahišta = n.pl? best
mind is in instr., by the mind, with the mind?
spanta maniu = the holy spirit (nom.)
Someone glue it together!
abl. of aṣ̌a
deeds and words (n. pl)
vahišta = n.pl? best
mind is in instr., by the mind, with the mind?
spanta maniu = the holy spirit (nom.)
Someone glue it together!
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Arief, it is no full sentence. And Billy has got all of the vocab except "hacâ".
And Billy has got all of the vocab except "hacâ". Billy James Brightraven ah right, hacâ "pre/postposition for "from, out of", Old Avestan."
There, someone do the braining for me.
repost:
ašāt = abl. of aṣ̌a (truth/right/order, think ṛt- in IE-stems re: semantics)
šiiaoþanâcâ vahanhâcâ = deeds and words (n. pl)
vahišta = n.pl? best
mind is in instr., by the mind, with the mind?
spanta maniu = a holy spirit (nom.)
Orig. Avest.
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
There, someone do the braining for me.
repost:
ašāt = abl. of aṣ̌a (truth/right/order, think ṛt- in IE-stems re: semantics)
šiiaoþanâcâ vahanhâcâ = deeds and words (n. pl)
vahišta = n.pl? best
mind is in instr., by the mind, with the mind?
spanta maniu = a holy spirit (nom.)
Orig. Avest.
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Well, it feels like I'm helping you far too much now.
Incorrect. Your former assumption of a comitative instrumental was right, and you've finally understood that's it not a sentence I'm after.
Incorrect. Your former assumption of a comitative instrumental was right, and you've finally understood that's it not a sentence I'm after.
Billy James Brightraven A holy spirit, with words and thought(alt. mind), from truth/order, the best deeds […]
I still think divine inspiration is the coolest, unless this is YAv. based on my primer.
I still think divine inspiration is the coolest, unless this is YAv. based on my primer.
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Consider the cases of all the nouns, as well as another order or reference. Non-configurationality makes everything possible!
Billy James Brightraven I know xD I wish I were more acquainted with the material though. I feel like context would help me a lot in re-ordering.
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström It would, I'm sure! I think Alfia could be of help. :/ And by the way, kiero k me contestes en linguifex!
Billy James Brightraven From truth, and with words and thought, and the best deeds, a holy spirit […]
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Nope, but if you'd find the noun which is mis-cased [sic], you will get a revelation.
Billy James Brightraven Ahh, so something has been incorrectly analysed. Very well. Back to the whiteboard. (Actually, I wish I had one. Doing these kinds of analyses is just way easier on a big easily erasable thingy board.)
Arief Wibowo (I am lost in all grammatical terminologies, will get back here after I get the hang of them)
Billy James Brightraven You should get into conlanging, Arief. It's a crash course in those things. xD (But also fun.)
Billy James Brightraven maniiū is a dual form, isn't it?
spantā maniiū is then "two holy spirits"
As in 1.30.3
"aṯ tā maniiū…" "Thus those two spirits…"
spantā maniiū is then "two holy spirits"
As in 1.30.3
"aṯ tā maniiū…" "Thus those two spirits…"
Arief Wibowo Will do, Billy James Brightraven Once I figure out grammatical cases and declensions and stuffs
Once I figure out grammatical cases and declensions and stuffsBilly James Brightraven from truth, and with words and thought, and the best deeds, o holy spirits?
boo!
boo!
Billy James Brightraven bleh, my table says maniiuu is u-stem nom.voc.acc dual … or instrumental singular? That… feels weird.
"With a holy spirit, from truth/order, and with words and thought, and best of deeds […]"
"With a holy spirit, from truth/order, and with words and thought, and best of deeds […]"
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström No, the adjective agrees with the wrong noun, and the order is still a bit off. See, reverse roles from the last round!
See, reverse roles from the last round!Billy James Brightraven “Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
"With the best words and thought and deeds, from order, and with a holy spirit."
"With the best words and thought and deeds, from order, and with a holy spirit."
Billy James Brightraven Is this from like a guide on how to not be a douche bag? Sure sounds like it.
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström Know that feeling. Sorry, wrong noun, and wrong order. And yes, that's the Gaθas for you! ^^
And yes, that's the Gaθas for you! ^^Christian James Meredith Billy James Brightraven, I wouldn't worry, you're doing very well for a strawberry.
Christian James Meredith Actually, were horses strawberries, or apples? I know they were some sort of fruit.
Billy James Brightraven "With a holy spirit, from truth/order, and with words and thought, and best deeds […]"
^ since this was the closest I got…
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
"With a holy spirit, from good thoughts, from right and deeds and by words…"
n'esr?
^ since this was the closest I got…
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
"With a holy spirit, from good thoughts, from right and deeds and by words…"
n'esr?
Billy James Brightraven Furthermore, I can attest to us being pineapples.
Also, not existing.
Totally zen.
Also, not existing.
Totally zen.
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström N'esr. :/ to many ablatives. Everything is instrumental but the "asha". :/
Billy James Brightraven Woot. Madness.
"With a holy spirit, with good thoughts, from right, by deeds and by words […]" ? xD
"With a holy spirit, with good thoughts, from right, by deeds and by words […]" ? xD
Alfia Wallace Dudes, I was away all weekend and you *still* haven't gotten it? I think Victor is being a little too harsh on us, no?
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström I'm not interested in a Mike. :S
Of course I'm being harsh! ^^ Okay then, let's see what you have deduced so far:
Of course I'm being harsh! ^^ Okay then, let's see what you have deduced so far:
Victor Wåhlstrand Skärström This is now a matter of composition.
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
spəṇtâ - holy
mańiiû - spirit.INST
vahištâ - good.SUP ~ best
-câ - and
manaŋhâ - thoughts.INST
hacâ - from, by, in accordance with
aṧâṱ - truth.ABL
š´iiaoθanâ - action.INST
-câ - and
vacaŋhâ - word.INST
-câ - and
It is no full sentence. It's a prepositional phrase which starts with "with". It isn't THE holy spirit, but "holy spirit".
“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
spəṇtâ - holy
mańiiû - spirit.INST
vahištâ - good.SUP ~ best
-câ - and
manaŋhâ - thoughts.INST
hacâ - from, by, in accordance with
aṧâṱ - truth.ABL
š´iiaoθanâ - action.INST
-câ - and
vacaŋhâ - word.INST
-câ - and
It is no full sentence. It's a prepositional phrase which starts with "with". It isn't THE holy spirit, but "holy spirit".
Arief Wibowo With holy spirit package, you get best thoughts, plus truth and deeds, plus speech. Purchase now, while stock lasts!
Arief Wibowo With holy spirit and the best thoughts, from/by/in accordance with honesty* and speech?
*) honesty in the sense of "an action with truth"
I am not good in grammars, so I don't really know how ABL and INST works together
*) honesty in the sense of "an action with truth"
I am not good in grammars, so I don't really know how ABL and INST works together
Christian James Meredith (“Spəṇtâ mańiiû vahištâcâ manaŋhâ hacâ aṧâṱ š´iiaoθanâcâ vacaŋhâcâ [...].”
spəṇtâ - holy
mańiiû - spirit.INST
vahištâ - good.SUP ~ best
-câ - and
manaŋhâ - thoughts.INST
hacâ - from, by, in accordance with
aṧâṱ - truth.ABL
š´iiaoθanâ - action.INST
-câ - and
vacaŋhâ - word.INST
-câ - and
It is no full sentence. It's a prepositional phrase which starts with "with". It isn't THE holy spirit, but "holy spirit".)
"With holy spirit, and with the best thoughts, and with action(s) and word(s) in accordance with the truth."?
spəṇtâ - holy
mańiiû - spirit.INST
vahištâ - good.SUP ~ best
-câ - and
manaŋhâ - thoughts.INST
hacâ - from, by, in accordance with
aṧâṱ - truth.ABL
š´iiaoθanâ - action.INST
-câ - and
vacaŋhâ - word.INST
-câ - and
It is no full sentence. It's a prepositional phrase which starts with "with". It isn't THE holy spirit, but "holy spirit".)
"With holy spirit, and with the best thoughts, and with action(s) and word(s) in accordance with the truth."?
Arief Wibowo Christian James Meredith, the puzzling part for me is how ablative and instrumental case work together
Christian James Meredith "hacâ" probably commands the ablative (thus hacâ aṧâṱ probably means "from/accordance with")
Christian James Meredith But my biggest problem is whether adjective/noun agreement exists in Avestan
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