Round 207 | Språkspelet

Round
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Andy Ayres Ok, here's the next round! And it's from a language family that I don't think I've used in a round before, despite by undying love for its constituent languages:

Töitä tekemällä ei rikastu, eikä rakkaus kestä ikuisesti.
Eikä uimahallin saunassa, kysytä lupaa löylyn heittämiseen.
Vanhoista metsistä tehdään vessapaperia, silti vessoista on aina paperi lopussa.
Miksi halpa tavara ajaa kansan hulluksi? Helsingin keskelle kohosi taas ostoshelvetti.

Aina hävitään Ruotsille lätkässä ja Euroviisuissa.
Joulutavaran myynti, alkaa joka vuosi aikaisemmin.

It looks a little long because of how the language works, but it's under the word limit. Onnea!

Sarah Karoline It looks like Finnish...

Andy Ayres That's right!

Sarah Karoline I shall see what I can do before I disappear to the fancy dress wedding reception meal - the nightmare of all nightmares.

Wrik Chatterjee By the way, it was from the Monk theme. Here, have it as your reward for winning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5Be5a86uA

Sarah Karoline To Andy

Sarah Karoline To Christian

Sarah Karoline To Wrik

Andy Ayres Wrik - Awesome! A Randy Newman song I haven't heard :D. Any show that uses RN for a theme is worth my checking out when I get the time!

Andy Ayres Sarah - Uff! I hate big social gatherings, and wedding parties are amongst the worst. What are you going as? Good luck!

Sarah Karoline I'm still searching for a dictionary...
Töitä - (a personal pronoun)
tekemällä - (a form of to be)
Joulu - looks like "yule".
Ruotsi - refers to Sweden/Swedish.
Euroviisuissa -Eurovision.
Helsingin - Helsinki
....

Andy Ayres All correct, except for the first two :D. Although, this being Finnish, some of the words' translations may be affected by the case they're in - they may gain prepositions for example ;).

Sarah Karoline I love Finnish grammar.... have I mentioned I haven't studied Finnish before?

lol

[I'm contemplating just wearing the bridesmaid outfit with a slight modification...

You can see on my FB status...]

Andy Ayres I love and fear Finnish grammar in equal measures. Astonishingly beautiful language, like most of the Uralic languages :D. I wish I had the money and the time to learn one to true fluency.

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter Andy, Congratulations on your 14th victory!!
Sorry for another Bruno card. I haven't got time to make a new card as I have been busy babysitting the whole week.

Andy Ayres Thanks a lot, Vincensiu! My word, feels like only yesterday that I joined in the fun of Sprogspelet and gained the first win. This is the main reason I joined Omniglot, and have enjoyed every minute

Sarah Karoline I've found Finnish wiktionary: http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/tehd%C3%A4#Suomi
a glossary:
http://ilmainensanakirja.fi/

I have a Finnish (and Estonian) learning resources, but I just look at a few pages every now and again, then I scared by the amount of new vocabulary and grammar to learn, so I listen to songs instead... Some day, some day, I'll learn one of them properly (I hope!)

Sarah Karoline (I'm stilll looking words up. I haven't absconded... :)]

Andy Ayres Both will help considerably - I've chosen a text with a lack of obscure words :D. Alan the cat has gone on holiday with his cousin, Ne Fi-Lai, and this absence is having an effect on my round choices :p

Sarah Karoline Saunas, paper, Eurovision, love, funerals, wealth, Helsinki....

I hope Alan has a wonderful holiday, and may he return meaner than before!

Anna Robbins rakkaus = love
saunassa = from the sauna?
miksi = why
Helsingin = To Helsinki?
Something about Sweden having had eurovision...
Something about Christmas (Joulu)

My Finnish is rusty

Andy Ayres Anna:
rakkaus = love - yes

saunassa = from the sauna? - right word, wrong case.
miksi = why - yes

Helsingin = To Helsinki? - in this circumstance, we wouldn't translate it as such

Something about Sweden having had eurovision...
Something about Christmas (Joulu) - both right

Andy Ayres Sarah: I'm sure Alan will return with his evilness reïnvigorated by the delights of modern travel. I already got a telegram from him:

"In Mauritania. First suffered the indignity of being told I had to fly "cargo" despite having a valid business class ticket, then got flown to the wrong destination. Heads will roll."

Sarah Karoline Oh dear, Easyjet will be in ruins. Shame he didn't fly with the other.... "Telegram": Am I right to assume he's been banned from using modern technology?

-----
This is what Wiktionary has told me so far. Absolutely no attempt to make the text into a meaningful prose has as yet been made...

Töitä tekemällä ei [NO] rikastu [GET RICH], eikä [NOR] rakkaus [LOVE] kestä [SUPPORT/WITHSTAND/COPE] ikuisesti [FOREVER].
Eikä uimahallin [POOL] saunassa [SAUNA], kysytä [ASK] lupaa [PERMISSION] löylyn heittämiseen [THROW].

Vanhoista metsistä [FOREST] tehdään vessapaperia, silti [therefore] vessoista on [be] aina [ALWAYS] paperi [PAPER] lopussa [END/REST].

Miksi [WHY] halpa [CHEAP] tavara [GOODS] ajaa [DRIVE] kansan [PEOPLE] hulluksi -BE MAD]? Helsingin [OF HELSINKI] keskelle kohosi [RISE] taas [AGAIN] ostoshelvetti [BUYING HELL].

Andy Ayres Sarah: He prefers using more traditional means of communication, because he says "there are too many eyes on the internet and ears on the phone." Did I mention that it was an optical telegram? xD You're right, Easyjet and Ryanair are currently quaking in their boots :D.

Most of those translations are spot on, though one or two would be changed when put into a translation - e.g. "support", "end/rest" and "rise." But generally spot on.

Sarah Karoline He's a sensible cat! Mine still communicates with his crew on foot, returning weeks later with blunt claws and look of exhaustion...
---
Thank you to the person who created Finnish Wiktionary! haha
Now I'll look at my shiny, but ever so slightly dusty, grammar book....

Sarah Karoline Töitä tekemällä ei rikastu,eikä rakkaus kestä ikuisesti =
Work makes nobody rich, neither love is supportive forever

Andy Ayres Indeed. Most people are being watched - Alan is watching the watchers

Töitä is work, indeed

Sarah Karoline and the rest is wrong?

Andy Ayres Ah, I didn't see the edited version!

Work makes nobody rich, (neither) love [is supportive] forever

One word needing switching, and two replacing, but mostly right on

Sarah Karoline I am chief "editor" here

haha
[Now I have a speech for the wedding reception.... Thanks!]
Work makes nobody rich, love neither lasts forever.

Sarah Karoline or: nor does love last forever.

Andy Ayres Work makes nobody rich, nor does love last forever - perfect first line. Tell that to your friends tonight :p

Sarah Karoline Oh, I will (*evil laugh*)

On that note, I shall disappear into the night. If the nightmare is over sooner rather than later, I may get a chance to return later..... (*screams are heard across the Danelaw*)

Anna Robbins Eikä [NOR] uimahallin [OF A POOL] saunassa [IN A SAUNA] kysytä [HAS BEEN ASKED (negative)] lupaa löylyn [OF STEAM] heittämiseen.

Still working on this one. This is as far as I've gotten, and I'm going to sleep now, so good luck to anyone who continues it

Andy Ayres All correct, Anna! (Though "has been asked" and "of steam" will change a little when put into the sentence :)).

Adrian Baxt-Dent I am starting to wonder.... could I look up historical soundshifts and work from there? Although, I never would have guessed from looking at them that "head" is a cognate of "Kopf / cappa"...

Christian James Meredith BTW Andy, I recommend Monk, it was a good show when it was on here.

Adrian mispost or am I reading the thread wrong?

Adrian Baxt-Dent I was thinking I could use my knowledge of Germanic languages to workout the Uralic languages by looking at what soundshifts there might have been from PIE. For example, could " Toita" (I can't work out Umlauts on this computer) be related to "toil"

Jake Kissinger That's a splendid idea normally, if you know enough about it to do that, except Uralic is not Indo-European.

Christian James Meredith Adrian oh, yes that makes sense! You could doo that, but you'll have to find how what words are Indo-European (mostly Germanic/Balto-Slavic) in origin and which are Uralic, and Uralic sound change is just as fun (complicated) as Indo-European haha.

But I heard it works well with Finnish and Estonian.

Wrik Chatterjee Like Finnish kunnigas "king."

Andy Ayres It's not an approach I'd recommend; I think looking the words up in a Finnish dictionary is likely to be more accurate :p

Anna Robbins Well, kunningas morphed from Old Swedish, most likely. I'm not an expert in that, but it isn't far from the modern Swedish "kung" and "konung"

It would take a while to figure out which words had been borrowed and/or altered from Indo-European origin, so Andy is most likely right for this round. It would save you time to plunge directly into Finnish, as opposed to working your way around through historical language change, Adrian

Sarah Karoline After five hours work, during which I looked up and cross-referenced words in four resources, this is what I've come up with.
------
Work makes nobody rich, nor does love last forever.

Nor in the sauna of the public swimming baths do I ask permission to (throw ?) a steam bath.

*Toilet paper is made from old forests*, therefore paper is, in the end (or: ultimately), always from toilets.

Why do cheap goods always drive people mad? In Helsinki city centre buying hell rises again.

Sweden is always defeated in hockey and in the Eurovision.

Christmas goods sales start earlier each year.
---
References: * * Word order rearranged by Vincensiu

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter My God, Sarah...
I'm looking up word by word, searching the meaning and possible case of every word and suddenly kaboom!
You came with all of the translated words :p

Sarah Karoline With the aid of Finnish Grammar by Fred Karlsson, Teach Yourself Finnish by Terttu Leney, Finnish Wiktionary and http://ilmainensanakirja.fi/sanakirja, I made the following grammatical analysis:

Töitä [Work] tekemällä [MAKE] ei [NO] rikastu [GET RICH], eikä [NOR] rakkaus [LOVE] kestä [SUPPORT/WITHSTAND/COPE] ikuisesti [FOREVER].

Eikä [NOR] uimahallin [PUBLIC SWIMMING BATH/genitive] saunassa [IN THE SAUNA/inessive], kysytä [ASK/present negative ] lupaa [PERMISSION/partitive] löylyn [STEAM/genitive] heittämiseen [THROW/].

Vanhoista [VAN- =OLD?] metsistä [FORESTS/] tehdään [MADE OF/FROM] vessapaperia [TOILET PAPER/partitive], silti [therefore] vessoista [OUT OF TOILTETS/elative] on [be] aina [ALWAYS] paperi [PAPER/nominative sg] lopussa [IN THE END/adverb (endlich)].

Miksi [WHY] halpa [CHEAP] tavara [GOODS] ajaa [DRIVE/] kansan [PEOPLE] hulluksi -BE MAD]? Helsingin [HELSINKI/genitive] keskelle [IN THE CENTRE OF] kohosi [RISE] taas [AGAIN] ostoshelvetti [BUYING HELL].

Aina [ALWAYS] hävitään [IS DEFEATED BY] Ruotsille [SWEDEN] lätkässä [IN HOCKEY]/ ja [AND] Euroviisuissa. [IN EUROVISION]

Joulutavaran [christmas goods] myynti [sales], alkaa [start] joka [WHICH-THAT-EVERY-EACH] vuosi [YEAR] aikaisemmin. [BEFORE/EARLIER].

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter One that I would like to suggest:
would it be better to sat Toilet paper are made out of old forest...?

according to wikitionary:
vanha = old
Vanhoista = old, plural elative (out of)

Sarah Karoline Have you found Wiktionary in Finnish/English? I only found it in Finnish...

Billy James Brightraven Vaka vanha väinämöinen…

edit: the Finnish wiktionary is easy to navigate, e.g., http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/Liite:Adjektiivitaivutus/suomi/vanha

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter Well, I just look up the word in wikitionary and it directed me to the English page.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vanha

Sarah Karoline Thank you, Billy!

http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/keski- [I only came across the Finnish version, so I had to translate the Finnish explanations too which was tiring.. I definitely drew the short straw, hahaha] Perhaps I should do this again...

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter I found metsistä as:
plural elative form of metsä

vessapaperia = partitive singular

Sarah Karoline I agree "toilet paper is made out of old forests". It makes more sense logically too.

After yet another hour of editing, I shall retire for the night...

Andy Ayres Some stellar progress :D.

Work makes nobody rich, nor does love last forever.

Nor in the sauna of the public swimming baths [do I] ask permission to [throw a steam] [bath.] "löylyn heittämiseen" has a specific non-literal meaning, I'm afraid. But it can be found on, e.g., wiktionary.

Toilet paper is made from old forests - perfect

[therefore]( paper is), (in the end), (always) [from] (toilets) - lots of words that need rearranging on this line.

Why do cheap goods always drive people mad? In Helsinki city centre buying hell rises again. - yes

(Sweden is always defeated) (in hockey and in the Eurovision) - Elements of this sentence need moving. do you think the Finns would list this in a song of bad things? :p

Christmas goods sales start earlier each year. - yes

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter In fact Sweden defeat Finns in Eurovision, at least in 2012
It should b somewhere around:

Always defeated by Sweden, in hockey and in the Eurov

Andy Ayres Exactly! Finland's had some really bad luck in the last 4-5 years in the ESC, often failing to qualify for the finals even (even though 2012's song was lovely.)

Always defeated by Sweden, in hockey and in the Eurovision would be a fine translation. Hävitään is passive present, Ruotsille is allative - so literally it's "always lost to Sweden". But always defeated by Sweden is a preferrable, more idiomatic translation.

Sarah Karoline Is "löylyn heittämiseen" as follows: throw water onto the rocks (in the sauna) ?

Andy Ayres Yes! It's a conjugated version of that

Sarah Karoline Toilet paper is made from old forests, however paper is always in toilets in the end.

Andy Ayres Quite the contrary, I'm afraid, Sarah - consider "in the end" as referring to the paper rather than the toilets and you'll get it. Also bear in mind that this song is a list of Finnish problems and that pretty much every line is negative - so every toilet having sufficient paper doesn't fit in with the rest of the kvetches :D.

Sarah Karoline Ajajaj, my luck is out

I'll see what I can do in the next five minutes or after work this evening... unless it's stjälcuried in the meantime...
This is a unique text you've given us!

Andy Ayres Most of your translation above is spot-on though, Sarah! Just a few things needing switching and reïmagining. I myself am here as part of a quick lunch break after having worked all morning, then siesta, quick check again and then off to work until late. The joys of the working week! Glad if you enjoy this text. It is unique to say the least :D.

Sarah Karoline Work makes nobody rich, nor does love last forever.

I hope you enjoyed a sunny siesta. It's sunny here, and I'm working in the garden. Next door's house is being demolished and sadly reconstructed... Jammer, jammer, jammer....
---
On a related topic..... (-> means I've altered that sentence)
-> Nor in the sauna of the public swimming baths is permission asked to throw water on the rocks.

- > *Toilet paper is made from old forests*, however paper is always in the end of the toilets.

Why do cheap goods always drive people mad? In Helsinki city centre buying hell is on the rise again.

-> We always lose to Sweden in hockey and in the Eurovision.

Christmas goods sales start earlier each year.
---
Time for some Mc Mane to get some inspiration to meet today's target...

Andy Ayres You are so, so close, Sarah!

All the lines are fine, except for the second part of the toilet paper line - think of what kind of complaint you would get by putting at the end and paper together. A literal translation won't make sense. Also, a little clue - "buying hell" is referring to a place rather than a phenomenon, so think about verbs related to rising (a building).

The sun and warmth is glorious here. Winter was dispelled and Spring arose all of a sudden. Only got back home half an hour ago, just finished lunch and now is the time for a siesta :). Glad to hear that Rainland's weather is clement for once :D.

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter Replace your toilet paper roll LOL!!

FYI in SE Asia we got sprayer hose instead of toilet paper, or bidet in MEast and Japan, And many ppl would wet the toilet seat to annoy the next toilet user.

Sarah Karoline Whilst I ponder and hastily seek these words which are confounding me outright - they appear to not be present in dictionaries, here's an appropriately-titled song by a Finnish band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEYtUcIKHTM

--
Tis but strange that that yellow thing in the sky has returned. It's been a while....

---
Sprays and bidets? Quelle horreur - haha

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter on a serious note I guess line 3 might be:
However toilet paper in the toilet always in the end. (the last piece of paper in the roll)

Anna Robbins I'm just checking in to watch the progress

This was definitely an interesting round, Andy

Andy Ayres Don't worry - I always precheck my rounds to ensure that every word can be found. But some expressions are more difficult than others sometimes :p

All this toilet talk is reminding me of China. My stay in that nation made me confront a very different understanding of the word, "toilet." The combination of a badly upset stomach, a speeding train and a squat toilet with neither paper nor bidet is not one that I would like to wish on anyone!

You're getting warmer, Vincensiu! It just needs rephrasing a little. Think about what it means if the toilet paper is at its end.

Anna - Very glad you think so! I'd hoped folk would find this text interesting. You will enjoy the accompanying multimedia that I post when it's solved then

Sarah Karoline Stjälcuring from Vincent: "The toilet paper is always out" (ie. none left)
or
"The toilet paper has clogged the end of the toilet"
---
Does "ostoshelvetti" refer to a downtrodden area?

Andy Ayres The first is the correct answer, Sarah! Ostoshelvetti is very literal... "shopping hells" or "infernal shopping centres". The problem wasn't with that, but with "on the rise." The infernal shopping centres are being risen, but we wouldn't talk about raising a building, unless it were a barn!

Sarah Karoline In Helsinki city centre shopping centres are always getting taller and taller / higher and higher / are towering skywards / are being developed .
---
So close, but still no rabbit....

---
I was going for "on the rise" in the sense "the shopping centres are becoming more increasingly popular" or "more and more shopping centres are being built". Ajajaj...

I have also found "towering".

Andy Ayres Ah, I've complicated things with a surreptitious work login post. ostoshelvetti is singular rather than plural, so it can't be considered as talkin about a trend. with asingular... one of those senses of on the rise is correct though

Jake Kissinger No toilet paper? Oh, gosh… I'm going to China this summer; should I bring my own toilet paper?

Sarah Karoline "In Helsinki city centre, the shopping centre is always being developed"
---
There are some European night trains that have shocking bathroom facilities...
There are an abundance of shopping centres here, as you know. I dislike them intently!

Jake Kissinger This is interesting text, indeed; you said it's a song, right? It seems like Sarah's almost got it!

Andy Ayres Very close, Sarah! Your original analysis of the sentence was correct: [IN THE CENTRE OF] kohosi [RISE] taas [AGAIN] ostoshelvetti [BUYING HELL]. It's not a definite, and there's no "again" appearing.

Jake: Glad you find it so

Andy Ayres P.s. I hate the identikit shopping centres too. There's one in Badajoz, and people were Astonished that it took me six months living here before I visited it once. And when I did visit it, I found it an almost clone of the Bullring in Bham and a number of others!

Sarah Karoline Adesso sono un po confusa... Is "taas" not in the original text or is the translation wrong? Wiktionary has "again".
In the centre of Helsinki a shopping centre is always being developed.
----
I successfully managed to escape being forced to visit Bullring Minor (ie. Westfield) on Saturday. Instead I was translating Finnish here...

Andy Ayres Taas is in the original text, and you originally translated it correctly as "again", but you keep on translating it as "always" instead, which in turn is confusing me :p. Sounds like a much better way to spend the time :).

Sarah Karoline In your previous post, you wrote "...and there's no "again" appearing."

I wonder why I changed it to "always" again and again...

Sarah Karoline What I have is as follows....
----

Work makes nobody rich, nor does love last forever.

Nor in the sauna of the public swimming baths is permission asked to throw water on the rocks.

*Toilet paper is made from old forests*, however the toilet paper is *always out.*

Why do cheap goods always drive people mad? In the centre of Helsinki a shopping centre is being developed again.

We always lose to Sweden in hockey and in the Eurovision.

Christmas goods sales start earlier each year.

Andy Ayres Sorry, I am confused and writing in a very brief window often of less than a minute whilst teaching. What I meant was "not always appearing" because you were already saying that... it is again

Sarah Karoline I too am writing post whilst working! haha
I shall wait thirty minutes and then look at the text again

Andy Ayres I've just had the chance to read your translation, Sarah (have been in a no-checkability-of-sprogspelet position). It's close enough for me to confer the win! Onneksi Olkoon, Sarah!

This text is taken from a very unique recording - a choral composition made from combining its participants' complaints into a song. It's quite an amazing and weirdly touching composition. Compared with the equivalent of my hometown, which is so embarrasingly bad.

Here's my take on the lyrics:

You can't get rich by working; nor does love last forever.
In the public sauna, permission to throw water on the rocks is never asked.
Old forests are cut down to make toilet paper;
but the papers are always out of paper nonetheless.

Why do cheap goods drive people mad?
In the middle of Helsinki, a shopping hell is built once more.

We always lose to Sweden in hockey and in the Eurovision.
The Christmas sales season starts earlier each year.

And here's the recording. Hope you all enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68

Sarah Karoline Now that was a surprise! I'd been working away on that sentence for 20 minutes, when I then discovered I'd won!

It's a fantastic song!! hahaha I particularly love the line about the neighbour pitching up too early for the sauna. I have a little cabin up in the frozen north which was once a sauna, then it was converted to a store for dogsledding equipment and now a cabin... Oh the sighs... hahahaha

I'd like to see a version dedicated to the Midlands... I imagine it'd be more of a death metal song!

Sarah Karoline And for Andy thank you for your patience!

Billy James Brightraven

Andy Ayres I'm sorry I couldn't tell you earlier, but I had literally less than thirty seconds before the class started, and was already being interrupted by an early-arrived student, so didn't have time to check the text properly! I get very disorientated at the end of the long day, so needed the time to read your comments properly without possibility of misreading :o.

I'm delighted that you liked it :). I particularly like "my flat is tiny but all my money is spent on it, so I have nothing left with which to save the world." I can totally sympathise. Unfortunately, they did do a Birmingham, WM version (my hometown!), but it was scandalously bad, despite being the original. Hope they do a better one some day :D.

Andy Ayres For Sarah:

Sarah Karoline An extra half-hour Finnish study did me good. I've only got two more chapters of the Finnish grammar book to go, before I've read every page. All the dust has now disappeared from it

The song could apply to Leeds, Hull and Nottingham, just three of the cities I've lived in. I can quite imagine how a song for these cities could be controversial, given what they are known for amongst students...

Sarah Karoline Whilst I concoct a text, here's some Finnish chirpiness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W6_3qEUCEU&list=PLvI4NizjrHL-1gDjyXKuB92DN5haA8iu_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO0p_U1w89A

Sarah Karoline Still thinking.... Plotting, planning, researching....

Sarah Karoline Sorry for the lengthy wait, fellow sprogspelares. I'm consorting with darkness and light...

Sarah Karoline And my mind has turned to goo....
In the meantime, here's some music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkiUUyIvZOo

Marius Vincenzii Dennischter Sarah, congratulations on your 11th Victory!!

Sarah Karoline 11th victory? I may be banned after what I've got planned...

Andy Ayres This sounds intriguing. I've even received a telegram from Alan the cat on the subject:

"Excellent."

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9vmMA0vVwYQ/S2N1Xae5i8I/AAAAAAAAHxs/yXJEPSMIzYk/TwoEvilEyes1.jpg

Sarah Karoline He looks so relaxed now. Good to see he's chillin' in the Ancient Place.

Sarah Karoline NEW ROUND NEW ROUND NEW ROUND...

And here it is, and much later than I planned for I have searched high and low, far and wide to find this amazing text for ye, my fellow språgspielares to translate. On my journey I was taunted by Alan, tormented by Faustian.... no, I wasn't. I was simply worn out, and I failed to find a dictionary for my original text!

On that note, I shall tag and then post the text in a new post...

Andy Jake Vincensiu Arief Wrik Billy (I can't tag anyone else in this post)

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